Discipline – Aaaarrrggghhh!
Here’s a possibly-hypothetical situation: My son starts poking his sister with a play sword. I am in the room and do not see anything that would have provoked his action except possibly that he decided he was done with what he was doing and he suddenly felt bored. She yells at him to stop. He keeps it up. I calmly ask him to stop. He keeps it up, defiantly. I remove his sister from the room. He follows us, holding the sword and threatening to poke more. I tell him (again, I am still calm and matter-of-fact) that he is bothering his sister and needs to put the sword down or he’ll have to go to his room. He says “Don’t care!” I don’t respond and go about my business. He pokes me.
I take the sword away and bring him to his room as he fights against me and kicks me. He won’t stay in his room, so I then threaten to take away a privilege (TV, computer, etc) if he does not stay in his room and calm down. Again, he responds “Don’t care!” I go downstairs and he follows me. I calmly (although it’s a REAL effort at this point – my voice is rising and he can see my patience is wearing thin) tell him that he has now lost the aforementioned privilege and he should go back to his room until he is ready to be nice to us. Again, “Don’t care,” accompanied by slamming doors and yells that I’m the “baddest mother ever.”
Sometimes this will be the end of it. Sometimes it will escalate further. More punishments, slamming, yelling.
I’m sure I can’t be the only one who deals with situations such as this. So tell me, where am I going wrong? How do I put an end to this defiance?
Some might say I need to be harsher. Immediately spank him or lock him in his room at the first sign of insubordination. But I happen to believe that hitting a child is never an effective form of discipline or a good example. Others might say I need to get to the root of the problem and avoid yelling and irrelevant punishments. I’ve been able to pinpoint what is likely to set off bad behavior: typically it’s boredom or sensitivity/embarrassment over something. But knowing the problem has not helped much in heading off the behavior. I also realize that much of his behavior is learned from me. I have a short temper, but for months I’ve been trying So. Freakin. Hard. to set a good example.
Tonight I cracked. I ran from the house, leaving the kids with PHAT Daddy and in the middle of meltdowns. I drove to a local shopping center, parked the car and sat there, sobbing. When I calmed down, I went to a pizzeria and ordered a turkey sub. The Italian grandmotherly owner sat with me in a booth and re-filled the napkin dispenser, chatting about what a slut Anna Nicole Smith was. I guess she could she I needed cheering up. Then, as she pushed the napkins in, she said (insert Italian accent), “Sometimes it gets too much. Then they pop all over.” I thought this was a good metaphor for how I was feeling. Sometimes it gets to be too much. Then you just pop.
Damn, parenting is really hard work.
PHAT = Parenting, Homeschooling And Technology. That about sums up my life at the moment. 
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MamaB | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
You just described a day at my house. Only I have two boys. I don’t have any good answers but I do have a healthy dose of commiseration. I try to be calm and collected. I do pretty good for awhile. And I hate yelling. But I find that the more they get into “it” (it being poking, stealing toys, wrecking each others buildings etc) the more I find myself yelling. Yelling for yellings sake it seems. It doesn’t actually help anything but there I am yelling at the boys to stop poking/pushing/being mean to each other for the millionth time in a day And it is hard. There’s no where to run when the kids get stuck in a bad day. Save for maybe the bathroom for a two minute rest period. (Love to the partners who relieve us when they can.)
Angela, Mother Crone | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
Just pick up that phone and call, girlfriend!
Each child responds to different types of discipline. If a child will not stay in their room for punishment, there is a real respect issue there, or lack of respect. I agree that yelling and spanking won’t work, but he can’t run rough shod over everyone whenever he is bored.
Try some old fashioned methods. Give him first the opportunity to stay in his room on a time out. If he refuses, tell him he has made a bad choice, and take stand him in a corner for fifteen minutes. Take a chair and a magazine, and sit right in front of him. DO everything you can to remain calm and nonchalant. Do not let him leave, but physically put him back in the corner. Refuse to respond to his comments other than to say, calmly, that his punishment is the result of his actions. Teach him to own his actions.
The best thing you can do for him as a parent is help him learn to control himself and his emotions. Yet that is so hard when we are tired and frustrated and are losing control over ours! You need to set the example,even if you are faking it. If need be, have a family meeting (at a non-stress time) and outline your expectations of proper behavior. Make a chart and hang it on the fridge. Then discuss the consequences of his choice to disobey the rules of the house. Once he has been given clear rules, with set disciplines , your job is to calmly enforce the structure.
In my house, there is a two warning rule. Given your hypothetical, after two warnings I would first take the sword telling him that he is not showing me he has enough control to play with it properly, so I have to pack it away until he can make better choices. Then we would do a time out for “direct disobedience.”
This is much different than making a mistake, but a result of directly ignoring your rule after two warnings, he is disrespecting your authority as a parent. Again, words like “good choice” and “bad choice” are putting the power in his hands while letting him understand that you set the framework for acceptable and unacceptable behavior.
Your consistency with this will be the key to results. For the first month, you can’t let up. But realize that the work now will lead to years of peace and happiness.
Ksses | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
It sounds like you let him get too far. You and your daughter should not have to leave a room because he can’t behave. When he was defiant the first time is when you should have put him in Time out, IMO. You let him keep pushing the buttons. Then he stays in TO until he’s calm for X amount of minutes. That normally depends on age, the older the longer. After the time out is when you talk to him about his feelings and what he did wrong. His feelings are important, but he’s got to know that that doesn’t excuse bad behavior.
As for taking things away, I’ve done that before also. He may say he doesn’t care, but he probably does. He probably knows it bothers you more if he says he doesn’t.
And remember, you turned out alright, so he will too.
Jess | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
First of all, don’t be so hard on yourself. You are a good example, even though you may not believe it at the moment. You work very hard, you try even harder, you dedicate most of your life to your kids, and you are human. It’s okay for kids to see you show emotions. They need to know it’s okay for them to do so, and that life isn’t always a rose garden.
What your son is doing is perfectly normal. He’s testing his limits. So much of parenting is trial & error. Next time maybe try taking the sword away sooner before the situation escalates. At the time when he was saying he didn’t care, he was pushing your buttons. Try to ignore it. When it comes time to play his PS2 (or whatever), he’ll care. That’s just what they do. He’s a normal child trying to find his power. Be glad he is doing so. He’ll need these traits later in life. But for now,YOU ARE THE BOSS, and don’t let him forget it.
You are not alone. I have these battles all the time with my son. He always comes around, but he has to hate me for a little while. It hurts me and is very hard, but it is my job. The rocking & cuddling days are over. Now I have to mold a gentleman.
Margaret | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
Here is something that has worked for me (among other things already said). When my son starts to spiral out of control with the yelling and door slamming and I see his anger rising, I will go and hug him hard, holding his arms against his body, all the while saying “get control” over and over. Once he is calm, we talk. He does lose privileges. In this case, the sword would be gone, maybe for weeks.
I am a yeller sometimes too. I hate this about myself. After I yell and it’s all over, I apologize and ask my kids’ forgiveness. This helps them learn to ask forgiveness as well.
Another thing we do, and I know this is not for everyone and may not be helpful here, but we pray together - for help in controlling ourselves, for help to love each other, for being able to forgive each other. This helps us a lot and I recommend that anyone who believes in (a) God try it out. (Treading carefully here, don’t want to offend anyone, hope I am not.)
I think as boys get older it is so normal to rebel against mom’s authority. Perhaps more so when the boy is with Mom all day. Another thing we do when we see a pattern is ramp up the Dad time. Approved sword-poking! Yeah!
Erica | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
Great point about the approved sword poking Margaret, it’s a case of teaching them the correct time and place as opposed to banning altogether, as long as it is (relatively) safe….no doubt phat daddy can hold his own
Joanne | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
>>>>I’ve been able to pinpoint what is likely to set off bad behavior: typically it’s boredom>>>>
Try talking to him about this when it’s not the heat of the moment. When it’s just you and him and you’re both relaxed. Maybe he can come up with a list of things he can do when he’s feeling bored.
>>>I also realize that much of his behavior is learned from me. I have a short temper, but for months I’ve been trying So. Freakin. Hard. to set a good example.>>>>
That’s a step in the right direction. It may take more than months though, especially if you’ve been that way for a long time. I also have a very short temper and when I feel like I’m getting ready to flip, I try to visualize myself through my kids eyes.
My other thought is to try and find opportunites for him to use the sword more agressively. Maybe your husband or another male figure is up for a bloody sword battle?
JB | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
So, if I am reading the context clues on your site correctly, aborting a child is not cruel (see Planned Parenthood banner ad), but spanking a child is cruel (see post above)? So, ending the baby’s life is more cruel than spanking the baby’s bottom? I’m really confused now.
I am amazed that you and many others that post on this site just affirm out of hand that “spanking doesn’t work.” I would ask, how do you spank? I’ve asked many of my friends who are parents how they define spanking, what it is used for, and have seen them do it from time to time. Generally, they report that it’s a few taps on the bottom followed by no change in behavior and lots of yelling.
The way we (try really hard and don’t always succeed!) spank our three children is much different. Once the infraction has been identified, we take the offending child to “the other room” and explain to them calmly that we are going to discipline them because of the behavior choice that they made. Then, the child usually starts crying or protesting with statements like, “I do not want a spanking!” We reply, “That’s exactly why we must do it. We love you so much that we don’t want you to go out into the world and try doing what you did to your sister. The world doesn’t love you, so it will just try to put you away, or take all your money, or in extreme cases fight back and try to hurt or kill you. So, we must show you a very temporary episode of acute pain that will help you make a better decision next time. If we didn’t love you, we would just turn the other way and pretend that nothing happened.” (If you think I’m kidding about the world’s response to little Johnny’s outburst, follow a 22-year-old guy into a pub and see what happens when he hits a girl on the head with a “sword” (see beer bottle, fist, etc.) The time for learning a lesson is long over, so the bouncer and the cops will move directly to the search and destroy phase of the young man’s development.)
Immediately after we deliver the spanking, the offending child reaches out for comfort, and we hug them and kiss them and tell them how much we love them. We then affirm that this episode is not over, they are forgiven, and that we should go finish our game or whatever we were doing when the incident occurred. Life is restored, a lesson was learned, and no one carries any emotional baggage from one day to the next. The accounts are closed, and we all know where we stand with each other. We avoid the awkward emotional isolation of not knowing whether “Dad/Mom is still mad” or “When will they get me for that?” Swift and painful justice, sweet lovin’ and huggin’ and forgivin’, and life goes on.
By the way, the whole relationship with our kids goes a lot better when we ask them for forgiveness when we have done something wrong. And we have told them that if we ever discipline them in anger, we are doing something wrong. (My oldest son actually admonished me to calm down once before I gave him his spanking. I took his advice, he waited patiently for the spanking, and all was restored 2 minutes later. Life moves forward and everyone has a clean slate with everyone else.
I enjoy your site, but thought that I needed so say something about spanking. It just gets such a bad rap (no pun intended) because I think most people don’t use it correctly. (I’m not the expert…All that I have learned about parenting has been trial and error and humbly reading the Bible and letting it tell me what’s up, not the other way around.)
JB | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
what an idiot I am… I wrote “We then affirm that this episode is not over,…” I meant the OPPOSITE… It should read, “We then affirm that this episode IS over,…” What a powerful effect the word “not” can have.
Sorry for any confusion that may have caused. Forgiveness means IT IS OVER AND DONE WITH. That’s what I was trying to type.
Laurel | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
Maybe a time-out is too isolating for him when he’s feeling disregulated. When my daughter gets out of control, I have her sit on a chair and “work on her feelings.” She screams and fusses while on the chair. I stay within sight, sweeping a floor or emptying the dishwasher and trying to radiate calm. Every now and then, I murmur some encouragement like, “You’re doing good, keep working on those feelings.” Once she calms, I set the timer for two minutes of silence and sitting still. Then, I give her a big hug and smile and let her go her way. Having gotten her feelings out, she usually is well-behaved for the rest of the day and perhaps for days to come.
Of course, with this system, you may have trouble getting the child to stay on a chair. So, you either need to make an agreement about it when the child is calm and/or you need to decide whether physical force is appropriate.
Some people might have philosophical problems with this system too, since it condones screaming. I figure screaming in a contained way is better than violence or mistreating others. As my daughter gets older, I anticipate we will work on more mature ways of handling feelings. (She’s only five now.) For now, I’m just glad when she expresses her feelings. On occasions in which she doesn’t, she eventually will meltdown even without sitting on a chair. I figure meltdowns are best held in the privacy of our home, where we don’t break anyone’s eardrums!
Judy Aron | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
Halfway through your first paragraph (and after your first two warnings) I would have taken the sword and broken it in half. He would have had to then apologize to his sister or lose other privileges. End of story.
Jennifer | Feb 10, 2007 | Reply
Boy, I remember those days. I tried the spanking thing with my oldest, no use. It seems it’s just a way for a parent to relieve frustration and teaches a child it’s ok to hit to resolve issues. I quickly gave it up when my son, screaming and crying before I was about to spank him, afterwords turned and calmly looked at me stating “hmmm, that didn’t hurt.” I then knew I could not do it again, he was daring me to hurt him! Just keep your cool, but do not for a minute put up with it or it will continue. After you have taken something away from you son, such as a toy or priviledge, try having him work to gain that priviledge back, instead of a time frame. That way he is earning it, not just biding his time. Have him do a household chore, thus teaching him responsibility for his actions and possibly learning something new. Every Mom has had those times when she just needs to walk away, and yes, cry in her car. There will be more, but power on! Love your site Shannon. Hope I helped. Jenn
silvermine | Feb 12, 2007 | Reply
Yeah, sounds like my brother. He was in his room a LOT.
I’d start taking things away sooner. You shouldn’t have had to move his sister. He should have stopped the *first* time you said something. I wouldn’t tolerate *any* hitting of mommy either.
He’s totally testing his boundaries. Give him some more!
sandy | Feb 12, 2007 | Reply
I offer this with the grain of salt that my oldest is younger than yours. That said, there are times when I just cut to the chase. Using your example, as we were escorting the boy-child to his room I also throw in a future warning: The next time you tease your sister like that or speak to me with such disrespect you will end up here, without the toy immediately. No warning. Are we clear.
The next time he attempts either - boom. Gone is the tool (in this case the sword) and gone is the boy.
I agree with silvermine, sometimes we try too hard to neogiate and be peacemakers. I do it also. “Stop.” “I mean it, really. Stop.” “Ok, I’m warning you….stop.” “Ok, that’s it. Stop for real.”
silvermine | Feb 13, 2007 | Reply
Oh, just to add, I hope I don’t sound like I’m criticizing. Like sandy, I do all the same things.
And later the same day I want to kick myself for not just cutting to the chase and insisting he behaves. 
KJ | Feb 15, 2007 | Reply
So glad you found me so I could find you! I love that you fled. I’ve fled. Sometimes I feel like it’s lucky that I’ve never fled while there were no other adults in the house.
Don’t they say that retreating is sometimes the better part of valour?