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	<title>Comments on: Bordering on Unschooling</title>
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	<description>Parenting, Homeschooling and Technology</description>
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		<title>By: Green Darner</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-5132</link>
		<dc:creator>Green Darner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/15/bordering-on-unschooling/#comment-5132</guid>
		<description>I would absolutely LOVE to be strictly unschoolers. It really sums up how I believe education should be. However, what to do about those standardized tests that the state requires? The only thing keeping me from totally unschooling is those tests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would absolutely LOVE to be strictly unschoolers. It really sums up how I believe education should be. However, what to do about those standardized tests that the state requires? The only thing keeping me from totally unschooling is those tests.</p>
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		<title>By: COD</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-5088</link>
		<dc:creator>COD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>//I have said for a while now that IÃ¢ÂÂm a little afraid that if we totally homeschool weÃ¢ÂÂll end up in front of the TV eating poptarts!//

That pretty much describes my senior year of high school :) Going to school is no defense against pop tarts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>//I have said for a while now that IÃ¢ÂÂm a little afraid that if we totally homeschool weÃ¢ÂÂll end up in front of the TV eating poptarts!//</p>
<p>That pretty much describes my senior year of high school <img src='http://phatmommy.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Going to school is no defense against pop tarts.</p>
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		<title>By: Trixie</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-5085</link>
		<dc:creator>Trixie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/15/bordering-on-unschooling/#comment-5085</guid>
		<description>Like Shannon, I&#039;m pondering Spunky&#039;s comment: &quot;The problem with learning just for &quot;delight&quot; and that being the only end, is that you end up with moral relativism.&quot;  First, it seems that Spunky defines unschooling as one learning ONLY for immediate, short-sighted delight.  That&#039;s not at all how I see it, and I&#039;d go so far as to say most unschoolers I know don&#039;t either.  I use the term &quot;unschooling&quot; to mean that I will not require my children to study anything they don&#039;t *want* to.  As mature adults with a larger context, we could be said to do many things &quot;we don&#039;t want to do&quot; every day... though if we wanted to speak precisely, we&#039;d say instead that we choose to do lots of things we find distasteful because we realize that they serve a purpose or goal that we *do want* to achieve.  I don&#039;t find delight in scrubbing the toilet, for example, but I do find value in having a clean bowl.  In one sense, I don&#039;t ever want to scrub the toilet, but I know that I really *do* want to because it&#039;s a means to achieve my goal.  These are the sorts of motivations I want my children to discover, evaluate, and choose for themselves when deciding what, when, and how to learn. 

The reason for learning, practicing, or studying anything in an unschooling approach is always that the learner has determined that doing so is important and meaningful to him.  I can think of no other valid reason to learn anything, and I don&#039;t see why this approach would lead to moral (or any sort of) relativism.  In fact, as Lance suggested through his discussion of spelling, I think this sort of learning discourages one from simply following the expectations of others and instead encourages him to ground his learning in the very real, objective values served by that learning.  Unschoolers will never learn to spell just to do well on a test, only because they have some real-life goal served by accurate spelling.  

Spunky fears that unschooled children may conclude: &quot;If I think it&#039;s important than it must be important.  If you think it&#039;s important and I don&#039;t then it isn&#039;t important.&quot;  I fear that schooled kids too often default to determining something is important *only* because somebody else (a teacher, parent, coach) tells them it is and (of course) because it will be on the test.  But things aren&#039;t important because *anyone* thinks they are... or because they&#039;re on a test.  They&#039;re important because they&#039;re of value to one&#039;s life, and knowing this requires a very abstract and objective view of reality and one&#039;s own nature.  It&#039;s this foundation that I want my kids to have.

And Gem, so what if your kids never *do* want to learn geography or calculus?  Seriously, think about it.  What if?  How bad would it be?  You joke about sentence diagrams (something I never learned in my public or private schooling, BTW), but are you saying that you could pass an AP Calculus exam if given one right now?  How important is higher math to your success and happiness?  I suspect that unless you&#039;re an engineer, physicist, math teacher, etc., it&#039;s largely purposeless.  If you&#039;re not sure, your current ability to recall the higher math you were once taught should reveal just how meaningful it is in your life.

All this talk about &quot;missing something&quot; honestly baffles me.  There are countless subjects never even considered in public school curricula or included on any list of &quot;what your X-grader needs to know&quot;, but nobody seems concerned about &quot;missing&quot; those.  I suspect the reason is rooted in our own culture of schooling.  Having been schooled ourselves, I think many of us have already forgotten the real reason why learning is a virtue.  Infants and toddlers seem to understand this intuitively.  After all, it&#039;s obvious -- you learn things so that you can DO stuff... take action in the world; create, produce, and thrive; find purpose and success; and experience joy.  But somewhere during childhood, many of us seem to lose sight of this obvious truth.  And so we look to others&#039; (largely arbitrary) curricula and lists to determine what we need to know, rather than looking to our own lives, goals, and needs to determine that for ourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like Shannon, I&#8217;m pondering Spunky&#8217;s comment: &#8220;The problem with learning just for &#8220;delight&#8221; and that being the only end, is that you end up with moral relativism.&#8221;  First, it seems that Spunky defines unschooling as one learning ONLY for immediate, short-sighted delight.  That&#8217;s not at all how I see it, and I&#8217;d go so far as to say most unschoolers I know don&#8217;t either.  I use the term &#8220;unschooling&#8221; to mean that I will not require my children to study anything they don&#8217;t *want* to.  As mature adults with a larger context, we could be said to do many things &#8220;we don&#8217;t want to do&#8221; every day&#8230; though if we wanted to speak precisely, we&#8217;d say instead that we choose to do lots of things we find distasteful because we realize that they serve a purpose or goal that we *do want* to achieve.  I don&#8217;t find delight in scrubbing the toilet, for example, but I do find value in having a clean bowl.  In one sense, I don&#8217;t ever want to scrub the toilet, but I know that I really *do* want to because it&#8217;s a means to achieve my goal.  These are the sorts of motivations I want my children to discover, evaluate, and choose for themselves when deciding what, when, and how to learn. </p>
<p>The reason for learning, practicing, or studying anything in an unschooling approach is always that the learner has determined that doing so is important and meaningful to him.  I can think of no other valid reason to learn anything, and I don&#8217;t see why this approach would lead to moral (or any sort of) relativism.  In fact, as Lance suggested through his discussion of spelling, I think this sort of learning discourages one from simply following the expectations of others and instead encourages him to ground his learning in the very real, objective values served by that learning.  Unschoolers will never learn to spell just to do well on a test, only because they have some real-life goal served by accurate spelling.  </p>
<p>Spunky fears that unschooled children may conclude: &#8220;If I think it&#8217;s important than it must be important.  If you think it&#8217;s important and I don&#8217;t then it isn&#8217;t important.&#8221;  I fear that schooled kids too often default to determining something is important *only* because somebody else (a teacher, parent, coach) tells them it is and (of course) because it will be on the test.  But things aren&#8217;t important because *anyone* thinks they are&#8230; or because they&#8217;re on a test.  They&#8217;re important because they&#8217;re of value to one&#8217;s life, and knowing this requires a very abstract and objective view of reality and one&#8217;s own nature.  It&#8217;s this foundation that I want my kids to have.</p>
<p>And Gem, so what if your kids never *do* want to learn geography or calculus?  Seriously, think about it.  What if?  How bad would it be?  You joke about sentence diagrams (something I never learned in my public or private schooling, BTW), but are you saying that you could pass an AP Calculus exam if given one right now?  How important is higher math to your success and happiness?  I suspect that unless you&#8217;re an engineer, physicist, math teacher, etc., it&#8217;s largely purposeless.  If you&#8217;re not sure, your current ability to recall the higher math you were once taught should reveal just how meaningful it is in your life.</p>
<p>All this talk about &#8220;missing something&#8221; honestly baffles me.  There are countless subjects never even considered in public school curricula or included on any list of &#8220;what your X-grader needs to know&#8221;, but nobody seems concerned about &#8220;missing&#8221; those.  I suspect the reason is rooted in our own culture of schooling.  Having been schooled ourselves, I think many of us have already forgotten the real reason why learning is a virtue.  Infants and toddlers seem to understand this intuitively.  After all, it&#8217;s obvious &#8212; you learn things so that you can DO stuff&#8230; take action in the world; create, produce, and thrive; find purpose and success; and experience joy.  But somewhere during childhood, many of us seem to lose sight of this obvious truth.  And so we look to others&#8217; (largely arbitrary) curricula and lists to determine what we need to know, rather than looking to our own lives, goals, and needs to determine that for ourselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Gem</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-5082</link>
		<dc:creator>Gem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/15/bordering-on-unschooling/#comment-5082</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed your thoughts -- they&#039;re so much like mine in this area!  Unschooling is great -- but what if we&#039;re missing something?  What if they never want to learn geography, or advanced math, or sentence diagrams?  OK, well I&#039;m not so worried about diagrams, lol.  Usually I check in with Ron and Andrea and they talk me down -- but my hubby always knows how to make me worry in this area!  Balance is the key, I think, and being very aware of that fine line between unschooling and apathy.  I have said for a while now that I&#039;m a little afraid that if we totally homeschool we&#039;ll end up in front of the TV eating poptarts!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed your thoughts &#8212; they&#8217;re so much like mine in this area!  Unschooling is great &#8212; but what if we&#8217;re missing something?  What if they never want to learn geography, or advanced math, or sentence diagrams?  OK, well I&#8217;m not so worried about diagrams, lol.  Usually I check in with Ron and Andrea and they talk me down &#8212; but my hubby always knows how to make me worry in this area!  Balance is the key, I think, and being very aware of that fine line between unschooling and apathy.  I have said for a while now that I&#8217;m a little afraid that if we totally homeschool we&#8217;ll end up in front of the TV eating poptarts!</p>
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		<title>By: Lydia</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-5080</link>
		<dc:creator>Lydia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/15/bordering-on-unschooling/#comment-5080</guid>
		<description>I think serious unschoolers are very strict about how they apply the label, but on some level, even some people who send their kids to school all day are also unschooling at times -- they just don&#039;t realize it. Kids *will* learn, it spreads out of them and no amount of schooling can stamp it out. I&#039;m not a strict unschooler and haven&#039;t &quot;earned&quot; the unschooling tattoo, but I do dabble in it. Heh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think serious unschoolers are very strict about how they apply the label, but on some level, even some people who send their kids to school all day are also unschooling at times &#8212; they just don&#8217;t realize it. Kids *will* learn, it spreads out of them and no amount of schooling can stamp it out. I&#8217;m not a strict unschooler and haven&#8217;t &#8220;earned&#8221; the unschooling tattoo, but I do dabble in it. Heh.</p>
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		<title>By: Petite Mommy</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-5049</link>
		<dc:creator>Petite Mommy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/15/bordering-on-unschooling/#comment-5049</guid>
		<description>I really like the idea of unschooling and want to do go in that direction but I think if we do start homeschooling that my approach will be somewhat like yours. I really enjoyed that article too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like the idea of unschooling and want to do go in that direction but I think if we do start homeschooling that my approach will be somewhat like yours. I really enjoyed that article too.</p>
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		<title>By: lance</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-5042</link>
		<dc:creator>lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/15/bordering-on-unschooling/#comment-5042</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a lot of discussion one could engage in regarding whether homeschooling in general, or unschooling in particular, fosters relativism (moral or otherwise).  But I&#039;d like to pose a more narrow question in response to Spunky&#039;s comment: who is more likely to correctly assess the importance of correct spelling, a child who is given spelling drills and spelling tests, or one who is not?  I&#039;m not asking who is the better speller, as spelling, like most skills, is one that improves with practice.  But who has a better idea of the _importance_ of spelling?

One need not develop a personal theory on the importance of spelling to come to an answer.  The &quot;untested&quot; speller will only encounter spelling in the context of other disciplines, and will judge the importance of spelling to the degree it serves those purposes.  The &quot;tested&quot; speller&#039;s evaluation will also include the significance of proper spelling to the grades they receive on spelling tests.  Whatever purpose spelling serves, it is _not_ to do well on spelling tests.  If it were, one could justify the study of _anything_ simply by compelling the testing of it (&quot;Why are you testing me on the state capitals?&quot; &quot;Because knowing them is important.&quot;  &quot;Why is it important to know them?&quot; &quot;Because they&#039;re on this test I&#039;m giving you.&quot;).  Factoring in spelling&#039;s effect on isolated tests skews one&#039;s evaluation toward the arbitrary.  

However, there&#039;s one additional consideration.  I thought about this some time ago when someone, a very bright, admirable, and engaging person I should add, confessed some confusion as to what orbited what with respect to the earth, moon, and sun.  Now my first reaction was to laugh, wondering how on earth someone so smart could be confused on such a basic issue in cosmology.  But I quickly reconsidered.  This person was not an astronomer, nor was she particularly interested in Kepler&#039;s laws of motion or Newton&#039;s mechanics, or the science of tides or meteorology, so why would I expect her to know about the relative orbits of these celestial bodies?  I had only one answer.  Familiarity with basic astronomy is a _marker_ of an education.

Of all markers of education, spelling is perhaps the biggest.  My two previous managers at work were atrocious spellers (with even worse grammar).  Only spellchecking technology allowed them to avoid appearing as total fools in written communication.  So here we have another candidate for the true importance of spelling: to not seem dumb.  And in fact, many people _will_ judge others by their spelling.  And they are wrong to do so, as wrong as I was to judge my friend by her lack of basic astronomical knowledge.

These two previous bosses of mine were no fools.  Their oral communication skills were excellent, and their limited spelling skills still allowed them to communicate adequately in written media, thanks to readily available technologies to correct most of their mistakes.  And most importantly, spelling was not a key component to the primary pursuit of their lives&#039; work.  (My new boss is a fine speller.  And I have formed a company with those other two previous bosses and am working my way out of my current employment situation. :-) )

One thing I will eventually like to teach my children is that they are likely to be evaluated unfairly based on their knowledge or lack of knowledge on a few arbitrary topics that have happened to been chosen for inclusion in most schools&#039; standard curricula.  I will also teach them that learning arbitrary skills for no other purpose than to impress others is a waste of time in the long run.  And of course, I&#039;ll teach them that people of character will not let their opinion of them be wholly constituted by first impressions, and that people of lesser character, those to whom impression is more important than substance, are best avoided anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a lot of discussion one could engage in regarding whether homeschooling in general, or unschooling in particular, fosters relativism (moral or otherwise).  But I&#8217;d like to pose a more narrow question in response to Spunky&#8217;s comment: who is more likely to correctly assess the importance of correct spelling, a child who is given spelling drills and spelling tests, or one who is not?  I&#8217;m not asking who is the better speller, as spelling, like most skills, is one that improves with practice.  But who has a better idea of the _importance_ of spelling?</p>
<p>One need not develop a personal theory on the importance of spelling to come to an answer.  The &#8220;untested&#8221; speller will only encounter spelling in the context of other disciplines, and will judge the importance of spelling to the degree it serves those purposes.  The &#8220;tested&#8221; speller&#8217;s evaluation will also include the significance of proper spelling to the grades they receive on spelling tests.  Whatever purpose spelling serves, it is _not_ to do well on spelling tests.  If it were, one could justify the study of _anything_ simply by compelling the testing of it (&#8221;Why are you testing me on the state capitals?&#8221; &#8220;Because knowing them is important.&#8221;  &#8220;Why is it important to know them?&#8221; &#8220;Because they&#8217;re on this test I&#8217;m giving you.&#8221;).  Factoring in spelling&#8217;s effect on isolated tests skews one&#8217;s evaluation toward the arbitrary.  </p>
<p>However, there&#8217;s one additional consideration.  I thought about this some time ago when someone, a very bright, admirable, and engaging person I should add, confessed some confusion as to what orbited what with respect to the earth, moon, and sun.  Now my first reaction was to laugh, wondering how on earth someone so smart could be confused on such a basic issue in cosmology.  But I quickly reconsidered.  This person was not an astronomer, nor was she particularly interested in Kepler&#8217;s laws of motion or Newton&#8217;s mechanics, or the science of tides or meteorology, so why would I expect her to know about the relative orbits of these celestial bodies?  I had only one answer.  Familiarity with basic astronomy is a _marker_ of an education.</p>
<p>Of all markers of education, spelling is perhaps the biggest.  My two previous managers at work were atrocious spellers (with even worse grammar).  Only spellchecking technology allowed them to avoid appearing as total fools in written communication.  So here we have another candidate for the true importance of spelling: to not seem dumb.  And in fact, many people _will_ judge others by their spelling.  And they are wrong to do so, as wrong as I was to judge my friend by her lack of basic astronomical knowledge.</p>
<p>These two previous bosses of mine were no fools.  Their oral communication skills were excellent, and their limited spelling skills still allowed them to communicate adequately in written media, thanks to readily available technologies to correct most of their mistakes.  And most importantly, spelling was not a key component to the primary pursuit of their lives&#8217; work.  (My new boss is a fine speller.  And I have formed a company with those other two previous bosses and am working my way out of my current employment situation. <img src='http://phatmommy.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
<p>One thing I will eventually like to teach my children is that they are likely to be evaluated unfairly based on their knowledge or lack of knowledge on a few arbitrary topics that have happened to been chosen for inclusion in most schools&#8217; standard curricula.  I will also teach them that learning arbitrary skills for no other purpose than to impress others is a waste of time in the long run.  And of course, I&#8217;ll teach them that people of character will not let their opinion of them be wholly constituted by first impressions, and that people of lesser character, those to whom impression is more important than substance, are best avoided anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon - PHAT Mommy</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-5039</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon - PHAT Mommy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/15/bordering-on-unschooling/#comment-5039</guid>
		<description>Philip - we&#039;d prefer to homeschool all the way through, but we&#039;re not ruling anything out. 

Spunky - I&#039;ve been pondering your comment. Moral relativism deals with right and wrong. If a person is passionate about something, then it *is* important to them and if they don&#039;t care about it, it&#039;s *not* important to them. We learn very naturally that some people enjoy some things and others don&#039;t. I don&#039;t think a child would grow up &quot;dismissing&quot; everything in life that is not &quot;important&quot; to them and labeling those things as &quot;wrong.&quot;  Drawing a parallel to moral relativism seems like a bit of a stretch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip &#8211; we&#8217;d prefer to homeschool all the way through, but we&#8217;re not ruling anything out. </p>
<p>Spunky &#8211; I&#8217;ve been pondering your comment. Moral relativism deals with right and wrong. If a person is passionate about something, then it *is* important to them and if they don&#8217;t care about it, it&#8217;s *not* important to them. We learn very naturally that some people enjoy some things and others don&#8217;t. I don&#8217;t think a child would grow up &#8220;dismissing&#8221; everything in life that is not &#8220;important&#8221; to them and labeling those things as &#8220;wrong.&#8221;  Drawing a parallel to moral relativism seems like a bit of a stretch.</p>
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		<title>By: Spunky</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-4956</link>
		<dc:creator>Spunky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/15/bordering-on-unschooling/#comment-4956</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I like putting either me or the child as the reason for learning something.  There are both internal and external motivators that are necessary.   

The problem with learning just for &quot;delight&quot; and that being the only end, is that you end up with moral relativism.  If I think it&#039;s important than it must be important. If you think it&#039;s important and I don&#039;t then it isn&#039;t important.  Neither is completely true. As parents we are facilitators part of our job isn&#039;t just to teach spelling, but to help the child understand its importance in the life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I like putting either me or the child as the reason for learning something.  There are both internal and external motivators that are necessary.   </p>
<p>The problem with learning just for &#8220;delight&#8221; and that being the only end, is that you end up with moral relativism.  If I think it&#8217;s important than it must be important. If you think it&#8217;s important and I don&#8217;t then it isn&#8217;t important.  Neither is completely true. As parents we are facilitators part of our job isn&#8217;t just to teach spelling, but to help the child understand its importance in the life.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/bordering-on-unschooling/comment-page-1/#comment-4943</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phatmommy.com/2006/09/15/bordering-on-unschooling/#comment-4943</guid>
		<description>I like the term &#039;unschooling.&#039; I think your approach is positive and wonderful for a second grader. I will be reading to see how you cope with motivation in future years. Do you plan to home school to a certain age, or are you playing it by year?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the term &#8216;unschooling.&#8217; I think your approach is positive and wonderful for a second grader. I will be reading to see how you cope with motivation in future years. Do you plan to home school to a certain age, or are you playing it by year?</p>
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