Follow-Up: Consequences
Filed Under: Parenting
This is a follow-up to this post and comments.
Thank you for all your thought-provoking comments. (Oh, I am SO affirmed!) 
Here’s another scenario: My son loves to jump on our couch cushions, which have recently started to tear at the seams in a few places. Is he expected to stop jumping simply because I explain that the cushions will be ruined and that will cost us money? Why is this important to him? He just wants to play. The consequence of having to purchase a new couch is irrelevant to him. In cases like these, I struggle to find a natural consequence. Perhaps I should make him “work it off” to help pay for the couch??
The question that remains in my mind is: What (if any) level of “manipulation” is appropriate in raising our children and how will this affect their self-esteem? Aren’t there instances when children must simply accept “because I said so” when they do not have the capability to understand the more complex reasoning behind a request? And if so, how do we teach (manipulate?) them to accept a request without any type of consequence (be it reward or punishment)?
PHAT = Parenting, Homeschooling And Technology. That about sums up my life at the moment. 
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Doc | Mar 25, 2006 | Reply
Sometimes the situation doesn’t have a natural consequence, unless, like one of my daughters, he falls and bites through the skin under his lower lip and has to get stitches in his chin.. I would probably drop the discussions about the cost of the couch and appeal to his sense of security by explaining that it isn’t safe - that he must set an example for younger (and easily damaged) siblings. Make it a responsibility thing.
My advice is to give him alternatives to jumping on the couch. A min trampoline comes to mind. Boys will jump around (girls will too). Give him a safe alternative to the couch, and then gently remind him whenever you see him on or approaching the couch that jumping in not appropriate behavior. And yes, “because you said so” is reason enough. Eventually they understand that you make decisions in their best interest (safety).
Children want to do the right thing. Jumping on the couch really isn’t a bad thing, it’s an unsafe thing.
Jean-Luc Picard | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
Perhaps couches ought to be fitted with belts so children can be strapped in?
You have such a great looking blog, Shannon.
Shannon | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
Jean-Luc: Tee hee. If only it were that easy. “Children are not allowed on the bridge.”
Doc: See, here’s the thing… I’ve always let my son play on the cushions. It’s not a matter of safety because he takes them off the couch and puts them on the floor. We play obstacle course and build forts. But now, since they are showing visible signs of wear and tear, I have to limit the previously acceptable play.
The cushions are just an example. You say: And yes, “because you said so” is reason enough. Eventually they understand that you make decisions in their best interest (safety). But what about when safety is not the issue? Perhaps it’s just throwing a fit when they don’t get what they want. Or perhaps it’s hitting when they get angry. Is offering reward or punishment the best way to teach them that these behaviors are not appropriate? Or is there another (better) way? This is what I am trying to figure out.
utenzi | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
Michele sent me, Shannon.
Just “I told you so” should be enough justification but of course that rarely works. Manipulation isn’t a bad thing, Shannon. Most of the socialization of kids occurs with their peers, not their parents. Sad to say, what you do won’t have that huge an influence on your kids–good or bad. Or so the statistics indicate…
Carlotta | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
Hi Shannon,
You ask: “Is he expected to stop jumping simply because I explain that the cushions will be ruined and that will cost us money? Why is this important to him? He just wants to play. The consequence of having to purchase a new couch is irrelevant to him”.
Well, I think it could seem relevant to him to provide him with the information that a new couch will cost money. This may well be sufficient in itself if he has already built up other theories about how money isn’t in endless supply, and if he chooses to use money this way, he may not be able to afford something else that he might want.
If he doesn’t already understand this, I might try to explain that this is the case, without framing this idea as a threat, but more a simple fact, iyswim!
If this still doesn’t work (he is too young, too focused on jumping), I would do as Doc suggests and find another equally good way to jump about, eg: mini trampoline, or another cushion that is not precious or a bit of foam from a scrap store.
I don’t see any need to resort to manipulation here…and am sure that the problem could be solved without doing so, as long as one keeps one’s wits and creativity about one.
You could also pose exactly this kind of question to the Taking Children Seriously list
via http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com
They are very good at providing creative answers to this kind of problem.
Shannon | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
Utenzi - I’d be interested in seeing the statistics you refer to, since I understand the opposite to be true. I believe family has a much bigger impact on us than peers over the course of a lifetime.
Chaotic Mom | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
I tend to be a Sgt. Mom, but am trying to give my boys choices. And if they choose poorly, they have to live with the consequences. We took courses about the program http://www.loveandlogic.com, at our church years ago, HUGE HELP. The local PUBLIC school district used this program with ALL of their classes, too. Big help in our lives. With all of the kids, now 2, 5 and 7 years old.
angel | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
Your son is 7 right? At 7, he can understand the concept of both A…….. If we need to replace this, we cant do…. whatever ie vacation, dinner.
And B, the rules are changing based on the fact its falling apart. You can change the rules when they dont fit for your family anymore.
I agree with Carlotta 100 percent.
Angel
Laurel | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
When I think of someone acting in a manipulative way, I think of someone who is not straightforward and honest about what they want/need and therefore uses underhanded ways to get things. I would be open and firm about what is acceptable or unacceptable. A natural consequence might be saying, “Well, if you can’t respect our family property by staying off the couch when I’m out of the room, you will need to play in the kitchen instead.”
surcie | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
My son is 2, and he’s basically doing the same thing. I’m not offering explanations because he just doesn’t understand. But gosh, it’s so frustrating! Awesome blog design! 9michele sent me tonight.)
Trixie | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
I think by age 7, a child can easily be called to discuss a problem such as the one you describe and be enlisted in a family discussion aimed at coming up with a solution. I’d be inclined to say something like the following:
“We have a real problem in this family. Using the couch cushions for jumping and fort building is beginning to cause them to rip and tear. If we continue to use them in this way, the cushions will be nothing but rags and we will have no couch. We need a couch and Daddy and I don’t want our furniture to be destroyed because it would cost us a lot of money to get a new one. What can we do?”
Then together, you could brainstorm ideas. Likely solutions would probably include both an alternative to cushion jumping (such as finding or acquiring old cushions to use instead, getting a trampoline, etc.) and the institution of a new rule (nobody jumps on the couch cushions). I think it’s okay to demand that a solution to the problem be found, but I would never just frame it as “because I said so”. I think it’s worth giving an explanation (simplified if necessary) even to a very young child. It sends the message that even though they may not fully understand it, there *is* a reason and you’re not just setting arbitrary rules and limits.
And I think the best natural consequence for breaking the rule in this specific instance is exactly the one you suggested. Having to pay to replace something you break is both meaningful and just. And it’s exactly the consequence that would occur out in the “real world” if he chose to act irresponsibly with an item that belonged to somebody else.
Sara | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
I’m a big fan of Kohn, and I try to use a lot of his ideas with my 2 year old. One thing I’ve realized though, is that a “natural consequence” of some of his actions is that he makes his mom mad or upset. I’ll tell him that behavior makes me mad, and ask that he cooperate with my efforts to not get mad at him. This is not perfect, Kohn-like, parenting I’m sure, but I’m not a perfect mom. And it does work to just be honest with him that I need his help so that I can stay happy and he can stay happy and we can all be cooperating and getting along. We actually have a “don’t mess up the sofa” rule in our house, based on “it upsets mom”. And he’s also been persuaded to turn off lights and heaters when he’s done in a room, based on saving money on the power bill so we can have more for fun things. I think honesty is the key to getting your kids to cooperate with you.
mum21angel | Mar 27, 2006 | Reply
2 thoughts - get some old cushions for playing with and make covers out of something like denim or fleece that will stand teh test of time
and explain that you have to choose between a new sofa for the family or eating/going to regular activities etc and calmly say that you have decided that for now you need to keep the sofa in one piece until you have saved up enough. Taht’s not manipulation, it’s a statement of your choice for your home. You are not giving him the false choice of “do you want to eat for the next year or have another sofa to trash?” you are showing him how adults run thier homes.
As for peer pressure - children in schools will pick up more from their peers, home educated children will tend to pick up more from their family as that’s where they spend the majority of their time.
Doc | Mar 27, 2006 | Reply
Okay, getting some old cushions is absolutely the simplest solution. It allows for the same creative play, the couch is saved, and nobody has to be disciplined in the process. People give old couches away free on freecycle all the time.
Danny Carlton | Mar 27, 2006 | Reply
We have a friend of the family that is a social worker. She didn’t like expressing anything negative to her children. She felt that even saying the word “no” was bad. Her children are now grown. The one I met has two kids and has never been married. Seems she never learned the word “no”.
Life comes with consequences. When we shield our children from the reality of consequences we leave them vulnerable. One of the most important lessons a parent needs to instill in their child is the truth that one must learn to live with the consequences of their decisions. As adults we face “artificial” or man-made consequences such as arrest, jail, bankruptcy etc. therefore creating consquences for your child is not innapropriate and will prepare them for reality.
It may seem like being nice, but not allowing your child to learn life’s hard lessons is really very cruel. If you can’t take the unpleasantness of teaching him to respect others’ property, then rather than raising a child, you may be creating a sociopath.
Leah | Mar 28, 2006 | Reply
I tend to follow the, “Because I said so” rule on this one, and the fact that respect for possessions and others possessions should be adhered to at home and elsewhere.
I remember a friend bringing her children over and allowing them to jump all over my furniture. I was mortified. My children don’t even do that. I told her children, politely as I could, to sit on the sofa. No jumping. This is my house. These are my rules. It was about a year, maybe longer before I heard from that friend again, and even then, she never returned to my house.
I don’t really mind the consequence here, because my children remain well behaved, while hers…….???
sandy | Mar 28, 2006 | Reply
A few thoughts come to mind.
First, I tend to frame discussions in a context a child can relate to. In other words, my son seemed to think he can throw a hard ball around the house on a whim. I asked him to stop. I told him he could easily break a window, or TV or a number of other things. Then I told put it in a context he could understand. We put our spare change in the kid’s piggy banks. When the banks are full they help us roll the coins and bring them to the bank. Meg is too young to understand, but Logan knows the money in the bank will pay for our vacation to Disney next year. I explain to him that broken window costs money to replace - money we don’t have just laying around. If he broke the window because he did not listen and we had to replace it, that money may have to come from the Disney account which means we may not get to go next year. He quickly stops throwing the ball.
Is that a threat? Sure - although certainly not in terms of something I say but not mean. Is it manipulating him in some way? Perhaps.
Second, I think Danny sums up what I was trying to get out in the last post. As adults we face consquences for our actions all the time - good and bad. I don’t think there is anything at all wrong with introducing that idea to our children. In fact, I think some of the issue with today’s young adults (and teens?) is a lack of respect and understanding of consquence. There is a fine line to walk on this - you can over do the negative or over do the positive. In my mind, the trick is to offer your children both.
Third - I do think, as Sara begins to discuss, that a child’s impact on the emotions of others IS a natural consquence. We’re not robots. Neither are they. They get angry, they get jealous. Frustrated. Sad. All that. So do we. I tend to think the healthiest way to deal with our own anger and other emotions is to be honest about them with our children. I don’t get upset or feel guilty if I get angry and react. I do make it a point of talking to my child when I’m calmer to apologize and explain what happened in an age appropriate way. “Logan, I’m sorry I yelled before. Xaction made me angry. I should not have yelled, that was wrong. Let’s talk now. I want you to understand why I got mad.” And that be saying something like - “When you walk away from me in the parking lot it makes me scared. I yelled at you because I was afraid you’d get hurt.”
I find this method has done two things - 1) It’s allowed him to feel ok expressing his own emotions (as well as give him the ability to label them) and 2) It’s shown him that it’s ok to make mistakes. It’s ok to be human and not be in control all the time. To me, that’s a strong self-esteem.
I’m not a perfect parent. Lord knows what my kids will be in 10 years, but for now, they’re healthy and confident. The other day my 3 1/2 yr old was coloring a picture for a contest a local store is running. He’s so proud of his work on the picture and was talking about the basket he was going to win. I was concerned because while his work is good for a 3 year old, he is in a category for 3-5 year olds. Chances are, an older kid will take the prize. I wanted to prepare him for such a thing. I said simply, “Logan, I really like the colors you used. It looks very springy and happy. Just remember, you may *not* win…or maybe you will.” He looked at me calmly and said sincerely, “That’s ok Mommy. What is important is that I had fun doing it.”
And there, to me anyway, is a kid with a healthy outlook on life. One that hears praise. One that gets applause. One that doesn’t always get to win board games just because he’s 3. One that sometimes loses a foot race. One that is smothered in kisses and yes, gets in trouble and sometimes is faced with ‘unnatural’ consquences. To me, it’s a balance and it works.