Parenting: “Doing To” vs “Working With”
Filed Under: Parenting
I’ve recently been intrigued by the writings of Alfie Kohn, a writer/speaker on human behavior, education, and parenting. Tonight I read his article titled Five Reasons to Stop Saying “Good Job!” (There is no direct link, so click here and look under “Spotlight Articles.”)
What Kohn says in this article really hits a nerve with me. He discusses how the overuse of positive reinforcement can actually be detrimental to the development of a child’s self-esteem. He writes:
[The more we say “Good job!”] the more kids come to rely on our evaluations, our decisions about what’s good and bad, rather than learning to form their own judgments. It leads them to measure their worth in terms of what will lead us to smile and dole out some more approval.
As embarrassing as it is to admit, many of my actions are precipitated by the need to have someone accept me, praise me, or simply like me more. I want people to look at me and say “Damn, she’s got it all going on.” As Kohn says in the article, it’s often more about the reward than the act itself.
This blog is a great example. Here I am, airing my dirty laundry for the world to see. Why? Because putting my feelings into words helps me organize my thoughts and gain better perspective. Because I want to share more details of my life with my family and friends. And because I want the affirmation. I check my email 10,000 times a day, waiting with bated breath for the almighty comments. Feeding my ego. Offering me acceptance and understanding.
Kohn also writes:
We need to bring kids in on the process of making decisions. If a child is doing something that disturbs others, then sitting down with her later and asking, “What do you think we can do to solve this problem?” will likely be more effective than bribes or threats. It also helps a child learn how to solve problems and teaches that her ideas and feelings are important. Of course, this process takes time and talent, care and courage. Tossing off a “Good job!” when the child acts in the way we deem appropriate takes none of those things, which helps to explain why “doing to” strategies are a lot more popular than “working with” strategies.
He loses me a bit here. “Doing to” refers to manipulating – through reward or punishment – to get the child to comply with our wishes. “Working with” refers to engaging the child in conversation about the consequences of their actions. I’d love to know more about this method of parenting and see how it really works in action. It’s been my experience that simply talking to my child about solving a problem does very little. Young children don’t yet have the same capacity for reason as adults. They want something, so they act a certain way in an attempt to get it. The action may be typical of a child, but you don’t want to send the message that it’s an appropriate way to get what they want, right?. So is Kohn saying a parent should allow inappropriate actions until the child has the ability to reason that the action is not the way to get what they want?
I want my children to learn from natural consequences rather than arbitrarily imposed punishments. I want them to grow up to rely on their own knowledge/experiences/convictions to judge what’s right and wrong rather than on what other people think. I want them to develop a healthy self-esteem. Kohn’s “working with” strategy seems logical, but can it work?
What are your thoughts?
PHAT = Parenting, Homeschooling And Technology. That about sums up my life at the moment.
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RedMolly | Mar 25, 2006 | Reply
Interesting, thought-provoking post!
This puts me in mind of some principles I’ve read about elsewhere. Many art educators agree that you shouldn’t tell a child his/her picture is “good” or “pretty” or “nice”… rather, you should comment on a specific aspect of the picture. For example, “You used a lot of bright colors here,” or “The droid in this picture shows really precise details.” (Can you tell I have two Star Wars-obsessed sons?)
I could see extrapolating this idea to commenting on children’s behavior in general…. rather than “Good boy!”, we should be saying “You set the table very neatly” or “I noticed you spoke to your brother politely about what you wanted him to stop doing.” Sure, it takes a little more time and thought, but maybe it trains our children’s focus more on their own ability to make choices and less on parental approval of their actions. Maybe? Perhaps? Does this make any sense?
Just discovered your blog via the Carnival, BTW, and enjoying it very much. Great stuff!
KKinPA | Mar 25, 2006 | Reply
Oh, yes, it can work! It just takes a looooooong time for us normal folk to integrate this way of thinking, acting and talking into our lives.
My 12yo son came home last night after a Black Belt test at his TKD studio waving a certificate around and feeling overjoyed about how well he had done on the evaluation. Instead of telling him “good job,” or how proud I was (and am) of him, we talked about how HE felt. He was not only able to just say that he was proud of himself, but also was able to talk about specific things he had done and concentrated on that he KNOWS were instrumental in his success. He is the one who worked hard, not because we wanted him to or because he wanted to please us. He’s able to feel pride in his own accomplishments and behavior - without a need for approval - because we have helped him develop the perspective and the language to place that pride where it belongs - and where it will have the most positive effect - in him.
I’ve been part of a homeschooling resource center in the Philly area for over six years where young people (and the parents) are spoken to and “taught” using Kohn’s (and others’) strategies. I could go on for pages about how and why this works, but let me just say that you are on the right track by reading Kohn’s work. Stick with it! If you hear of workshops, take them.
It’s challenging to make this way of speaking and thinking a part of one’s lifestyle and vocabulary. It feels very unnatural at first. (Be prepared, too, for the fact that it will bring your own need for approval into light. This can be disconcerting. I spent 40 years trying to get my parents’ approval, and am only recently facing the facts of the impact that has had on my life.)
I still need to check myself sometimes, to remind myself about the impact my words and actions might have on my kids. But when you start to really notice the positives, it compels you to do it more. Which is exactly the point. Right?
Love your site, Shannon.
Peace.
donnalee | Mar 25, 2006 | Reply
Shannon, (I, too, discovered you via the Carnival, but an earlier one)
I wonder if this new is really old when back in the day parents didn’t “affirm” their children so much and actually expected more out of them. We just finished reading the Ralph Moody series and in the first one, Little Britches, Ralph is 8 yrs. old and has gone by himself, after lying to his mother telling her that his dad had told him to, to pull railroad crossties out of a gulley(they had been replaced) with a horse and had some real problems and was not able to finish (you need to read about it); anyway, he goes home and tells his mother the truth; his dad comes in, his mother tells him what’s happened and (if you don’t mind) this is what his dad then says to him: “Son, there is no question but what…you’ve done today deserves severe punishment. You might have killed yourself or the horse, but much worse than that, you have injured your own character.”(He goes on to give an analogy of “a man’s character is like his house…”)He then tells him he could basically whip him but if he did he’d probably remember that longer than he would remember the injury he’d done (to) himself. So he did two things: 1, he wouldn’t take him anywhere with him(which was really something to him since he alway wanted to go with; might not work if you didn’t already have that kind of relationship) and 2, he had just moved out west where all the boys wore overalls to school (remember this was back in the 30s) and he’d been wearing a Buster Brown suit to school Back East and had started off wearing it there until he and his dad had found out different and his dad made his mom
(who still wanted him to wear it) let him start wearing what the other boys did - anyway, he had to go back to wearing the Buster Brown suit to school until he pulled everyone of them (18) out - after his dad had showed him how. It took two weeks - “a tough two weeks”) I’m sorry so long, but this just really made an impression on me and seemed to fit in with what you were saying - maybe parents back when knew more than we thought.(Hm) Thanks
Carlotta | Mar 25, 2006 | Reply
There is a whole philosophy, based upon the critical rationalism of Karl Popper, about how to learn through consensual parent/child interaction which can be found at: http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com
It can sound utterly counter-intuitive to begin with, but is actually a workable and rigorous way of helping children solve problems, and live in harmony with parents.
vamp-in-training | Mar 25, 2006 | Reply
Ya know, I’m probably in the minority here, but I want my kid to want to please me, and be upset if she doesn’t. No, her whole world needn’t revolve around that when she is 20, but at 7?
I say “good job” and “cut that out” often. I was told these things too. I like people to like me, but I’m not afraid to do something because it might displease someone. I’m OK with the way I talk to my child, and this stuff just sounds like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to me.
My two cents
Vamp
(who, BTW Shan, passed my national certification with a 96% - Good Job to me
Angela, Mother Crone | Mar 25, 2006 | Reply
I was very intrigued by this post, and read the articles. I can’t say that I entirely agree with this thinking, especially with young children. Children are inherently self-absorbed, so the theory of getting them to act to please themselves seems silly. I like that my opinions and values impacted their behavior as they were growing…how else would they gain a barometer by which to judge? Since my kids are 11 & 14, and I can honestly say they see the bigger picture. We always discussed consequences and expectations, and emphasized their power to make good choices. They know when they drop the ball, they let themselves down. They simply do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, because they have internalized our value system. They don’t live in fear of us, or lie to us when they screw up, as some kids do. ANd I still praise them…
I think it is healthy to want affirmation of our ideas as adults, as well. It is good to have a “mind” connection with others, to know there are others out there who think along our lines, especially when we have chosen lifestyles with many alternative values (ie. homeschooling, stay-at-home parenting.) It is sharing and finding the common bonds that are not always there with those who live in our neighborhoods or families. Others opinions don’t define my choices, but it can be uplifting to know others experience the same things.
sandy | Mar 25, 2006 | Reply
So there’s the thing. I do say “good job” a lot. I do offer praise and high fives. Maybe it’s over done? I don’t know. I do think that the best away to avert the “people pleaser” problem is to help a child cultivate a strong esteem. I think I can say, with confidence, that I don’t fear messing up. I know it happens. I know I’m going to disappoint people sometimes - no, I don’t want to, but I’m not ill at the thought of it happening. I’m not dependent on acceptance to be happy. I want to instill that same feeling in my children.
As for talking consquences with my children. The little one is just now getting more into a spot where we can talk *with* her some. So we’ll not talk about her in this context. My son, however, is another story. There are consquences to his actions. If he, for example, decides to ignore me calling him as he bolts down the hall at church tomorrow morning, he knows when he gets home a beloved toy heads into time out for the day. When we talk about it (later…when we’re all calm) I don’t just recap the cause and effect. Our approach is very simple — Logan, listen, you ALWAYS have a choice. If I say walk with me, you have the choice to do what I tell you or to ignore me. However, if you decide to ignore me, then there is a consquence for acting that way. In other words, if you decide to not listen, a toy goes into time out.
The first few times we explained the word consquence to him. Yes, he is 3 1/2 today. Yes this is not a new approach to him. HOwever, we didn’t introduce it until we thought he, personally, was ready to handle it. I think some kids his age are…and some aren’t.
In the big picture (not to hog up your comments field) I think the idea of not using a ‘fear of reprisal’ type system is unrealistic. I mean really, let’s be honest, do you drive 5 miles over the speed limit ever? Do you hit the brake and slow down when you see a police cruiser? Why? Because you want to please the officer? Because you want to do right? Or is it becasue you want to avoid the ticket? Grown-up life is also loaded with negative consquence for mis-action or ‘rule’ breaking. We show up to work late too often, we get fired. We crack a few too many off-colored jokes we get sent to human resources. We wear neon clothes and acid washed jeans deep into the 21st century and we land on “What Not to Wear.” See what I mean?
Doc | Mar 25, 2006 | Reply
I don’t praise my kids for expected behavior. I never have. I go into a bit more detail in this post:
http://intothesunrise.blogspot.com/2006/03/goal-setting-vs-scheduling.html
What you describe above is basic learning theory, psychology 101. Reward approximations of behavior until you’ve achieved the level you want. Blah, works with pets, kids are a different species.
Trixie | Mar 26, 2006 | Reply
Very interesting topic. I’m not very familiar with Alfie Kohn’s writings, so I can only base my thoughts on what you’ve shared of them here. I agree that rewards can be over-used, especially when they’re offered as incentives for behaviors or accomplishments that somebody already finds intrinsically rewarding (schools are notorious for this). I don’t think kids need the promise of stickers or ice cream cones, for example, as incentives to learn to read — reading reaps its own rewards, and most young kids I know experience genuine excitement and pride when they first figure out how to break the code. I agree with Mother Crone that children are self-absorbed and naturally act to please themselves. And exercising our amazing minds and experiencing the results is generally reward enough.
My first thought upon reading your entry, however, was “but why shouldn’t *we too* express our genuine pride and excitement when our children perform a job well done?” It seems a natural response. And how would I feel if those I loved *didn’t* express pride and excitement when I shared with them the experience of accomplishing something wonderful? I think despite my own judgment of my accomplishment, I’d feel pretty lousy… and if I were a child still forming my sytem of values, I might decide that my accomplishment wasn’t so great after all.
I think I get one of Kohn’s points — let’s not turn our kids’ focus from the intrinsic value of their accomplishments to a mere desire to please others. Developing good self-esteem requires that we engage in honest and accurate self-appraisal, which of course requires that we assess the value of our accomplishments without regard to others’ judgments of them. But there’s more than just this one dimension of development to consider when raising children — I’m not *only* concerned with teaching my kids the value of certain virtues, behaviors, etc. or *only* with encouraging accurate self-appraisal skills (though I do think these are both important). I also recognize that humans are social animals who have a psychological need to be seen, understood, and appreciated. And developing strong and decent relationships of all sorts — business partnerships, friendships, and love relationships included — requires a sharing of values, a reflection (yes, an affirmation!) of one’s emotions and experiences. If I aim to foster long-lasting, strong relationships with my children and if I want to provide them a good example of how to nurture such relationships, I think it’s essential that I respond to their accomplishments as I would want and expect a friend or lover to respond to mine — with shared pride and genuine excitement. Besides feeling very unnatural, hiding such responses runs the risk of sending the message that we don’t value our children’s accomplishments, and I’m not convinced it necessarily teaches kids to rely primarily on our judgment of them. It may simply act to affirm their own judgment that what they accomplished was wonderful and worthy of pride.
I consider myself a person of high self-esteem, and I pursue what I consider values and take pride in my accomplishments regardless of others’ opinions about them (it’s why I can live so securely and happily holding so many unorthodox opinions!). Still, it’s both wonderful and important for me to be able to share those accomplishments with my husband, children, friends, and/or others with whom I share close relationships so that I can also experience that pride reflected back to me. This is a human psychological need and one that I don’t think we should overlook when nurturing our children.
Just some of my initial thoughts on this one…
Mamadala | Mar 29, 2006 | Reply
Would it be bad if I said “Good post!”?
I also find Alfie Kohn’s writings to be very intriguing. I think his theories play out better as the kids get older, though. You could try reading his “Punished by Rewards” or another one I got from the library called “What to look for in a classroom.” The latter is a but easier to get through as it is a collection of essays.
Enjoying what I’ve read so far here. And thanks for the comments for Mezzo-Forte’s blog (my son). I do think it motivates him to at least know others are reading his posts, whether they like them or not.